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Subject Re: Restarting Tasks: Pure Gliders vs Motors
Thread Number 3 of 4 in thread
Author Santiago Cervantes
Posted 02-Aug-18 08:46:00

"It s good to see that you agree although one of your flights came up in evidence for a different interpretation!"

Quite: When I did that particular flight in 2015 I did not give it any thought but now that it s been brought to my attention I now think it s not right. I m not comfortable with it. As far as I can recall I have not done that since. However, there is some ambiguity in the rules that may still allow it. It s interesting however that we both have come to the same conclusion.

I think it is fair enough as a ladder steward to have a discussion at club level as to whether a flight conforms to Ladder Rules and act appropriately but what going to happen if it s a mega flight with implications at a national level or for awards?

At the end of the day a soaring flight is a combination of natural ability, acquired skills, judgement, equipment, and commitment, which includes financial and in time and finally the desire to achieve. The ladder has done a pretty good job of it so far but we should consider whether it needs a little adjusting.

The introduction of the FES and similar simple engine starting systems compared to the old less stable ones (both in reliability and the flight characteristics resulting from attempting to start) bring a new element into the equation

In certain respects the BGA ladder is caught between two stools
1. Acknowledging gliding achievements whilst trying to provide a level playing field and,
2. Promoting advancement in soaring by injecting a competitive element so as to stretch ourselves as to what can be done on a given day.
I also accept that there are different ways of measuring flying achievements but the ladder has been and still is inclusive.

As you say there is plenty of time to think about it but, as you well know, Neil, for us up here in Scotland, the season does not finish in October. Will we get an autumn & winter wave season this year?

It s been a great season so far for so many.



## On 30-Jul-18 22:16:00 Neil Goudie wrote:


Coincidentally, this same query has come to me as Steward at Cambridge GC and I have taken your position based on one interpretation of the current rules. The joys of a regulatory mind coming to the challenge!

Its a fine balance.

I've politely requested a reposting of the flight as an undeclared flight as I think that provides a level playing field without dismissing the flight. The re-attempt was an admirable one albeit after a termination of the declared flight.

Its good to see that you agree although one of your flights came up in evidence for a different interpretation! but as you say some of this is promoting fun gliding and some of it is about a level playing field at a club level.

The counter argument is that ladder is a mix of badge and competition flights with differing rules for each which contradict each other.

My main problem is, just like common law, the ladder rules have developed as 'cases' come up and then forgotten in the midst of time with only a judge with too much time on his/her hands remembering what the logic was. We are volunteers so there is an element of refereeing here. The referee's decision is final.

I don't expect a Club Steward to troll through the forum for an interpretation nor do I wish for endless rules to interpret as a pilot or Steward.

My decision is based on what is fair and reasonable and what would the 'man on the Clapham Omnibus' say if it was explained to him over a beer a the Club bar - to mix lots of metaphors.

My approach is take all these 'wrinkly' questions to a local club forum in the autumn for discussion and get consensus & clarity locally. I will post some ideas for discussion over the winter.

John Bridge thinks that is a good idea as life is too short to debate in the soaring season.

So if I don't respond until October you'll know I'm still pondering how to square the circle, or gliding.


## On 29-Jul-18 07:12:00 Santiago Cervantes wrote:

As a club ladder steward I've recently had an email conversation that has raised an issue which may merit some discussion.

The question is:

Is it fair that a self sustainer/ self launcher can restart a task having started the engine to save one from a field landing?

A pure glider in a similar situation would inevitably land out and would only be able to reattempt the task by a retrieve to the airfield and relaunching whereas a self sustainer/self launcher is effectively getting a "second bite of the cherry".

To me the BGA Ladder ( and OLC for that matter) are there to promote cross country soaring in friendly competition with the minimum of rules and personally I think its pretty successful. Both are similar with regards to engine start rules.
The fact that both the ladder and OLC are open to all types of gliders and through their designs are able to differentiate between glider categories/types are, I reckon, all in all, pretty equitable.

I do feel however, that this issue is a wrinkle that needs addressing.

As a point of discussion could I propose that in event of an engine restart beyond gliding range or at a defined distance from the start point that if the task is reattempted then it be scored as for an undeclared flight.
The option to relaunch from site is taken as a given.

With regards to club tasks I currently don't have a fixed opinion on that one.

Any opinions or thoughts?

Sant Cervantes


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